Subject: Re: just intonation applied to guitar To: jmenich@disk.com (john menich) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Cc: ro@panix.com (r l reid) In-Reply-To: <3169D3B4.7FA0@disk.com> from "john menich" at Apr 8, 96 08:04:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > > hey ro, > > HHHHHHHEEEEEELLLLLLPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!! > > is this the common expression of someone attempting to get into just > intonation? Well, sure, since info isn't that readily available. It's not hard, once you get the info you need and work with it a bit. Question - where are you located? > > i'm a guitarist of 18 years and i'm looking for someone who can answer a > few of my questions about just intonation applied to guitar. I have no direct experience with JI guitars but do know how its done. > > here is how far i have progressed since i have stumbled apon the idea > of just intonation a few weeks ago. > > -i'm joining the ji network Good move. > -contacted several luthiers about building a custom instrument (too > expensive!!!!) There may be non-custom ones available, tho I'm usre they're expensive too. When LaMonte Young and the Forever Bad Blues Band did their shows at the kitchen (a 3 hour long JI blues), the guitarist had changable fretboards; and he would slip the various fretboards on and off the neck as they changed keys. On the other hand, when John Schnieder of Just West Coast wanted to do Harry Partch's music, he copied the adapted guitar by having a C F Martin refretted. This raises a question - what do you want out of JI? Do you want to play diatonic stuff, but "well tuned"? Or do you want to have large numbers of notes per octave availalable to you at all times? The changable fretboards are good for the first. For the second (which I think is more interesting - my personal opinion is that equal temperament is fine for diatonic and chromatic stuff), you might do something like what harry partch did when he built the "adapted viola" and the "adapted guitar". The adapted guitar does NOT have straight frets. Rather, a seperate fret is needed for each note and string. I've heard that a german lutheier name of Walter Vogt has invented a "Fine Tunable Preceision Fret Board". No doubt very expensive. The older approach is just to measure it all off and put short little frets under each string. The adapted guitar's strings are grouped in three octave pairs tuned in pure thirds, e-flat-G-B. The placement of frets is determined by Partch's system of 43-tones per octave, giving you 3 As, 2 Csharps, etc. Your best bet by far would be to track down a copy of Harry Partch's "Genesis of a New Music". It was most recently printed by DaCapo Press in New York but I think is back out of print. You might try and contact them to see if another printing is immentent (I'm hoping people calling and asking will get them to do it). Actually, I'm not sure why you would need a JI calculator to set up a guitar. The beauty of JI is that it's based on string length ratios! So if you want a to put in a fret that is the 3/2 of the total string (which we'll say is 1/1), then you just measure off 2/3 of the distance and there's your 3/2! You should get the Partch book if at all possible so you can read things like "the Language of Ratios" and "instruments for demonstration". Before hacking up an expensivfe neck, you might want to first build a monochord out of a 2x4, a few dowels for bridge and a tuning machine, and use one more dowel as a movable fret, just to get the feel of things. What would probably be good (unless you have the partch boo) is for me to photocopy the pages on the adapted viola and guitar. I think this would really get you started. Send me your mail address and I'll get that together for you. Oh yeah - go to a BIG record store - such as Tower or HMV - and buy a CD of Just West Coast microtonal music for guitar and harp Bridge Recording BCD 9041 Copyright 1993 Probaly in the classical section, possibly ghettoised into the 20th century section. > -im purchasing the ji calculator by robert rich > -i'm going to buy a replacement neck and have it made without frets, in > hopes of the calculator being able to give me the exact measurments > of the fret spacing. is this a logical way to get the fret spacings or > am i missing the point? Wait till I send you the partch stuff before you hack up a neck. Unless you are fabulously wealthy, I'd suggest getting the cheapest neck you can on the assumption that the first one you do will be a "learning experience", and that when you're done you'll then do another one for real. Send me an adress so I can mail you these copies. By the way, I'm always looking for info to add to my JI page - and this correspondance looks like it would be a nice addition. May I have your permission to add it to my web page? ********************************************************* From ro Sat Apr 27 22:24:01 1996 From: r l reid Subject: Re: Just Intonation Guitar To: jmenich@disk.com (john menich) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 22:23:49 -0400 (EDT) John - > > Thank you for responding to my request so promptly, I really appreciate > you giving up some information to help someone you don't even know! Well, I made up for it by keeping you waiting this time. Actually, you timed the first one right - I was recovering from surgery at the time. Now that I'm better, I have less time! Not too get too mushy, but I think there was an obligation to respond. When I first got turned on to Harry Partch, about 10 years ago the first thing I did was get on the net and look for some kind soul to educate me. So I gotta pass it on... > I am located in Illinois, just a half hour drive north west of Chicago. I asked on the off chance we were nearby each other - but we're not (I'm in HAstings-On-Hudson NY, 20 miles north of midtown Manhattan.) > What do I want out of JI you ask? > I'm not so sure myself. I'm primarily a hard rock musician. I've allways > used alot of noise, feedback and unorthodox chords in a somewhat > "commercial" context. I have a love for bending notes and chords as well > as using drones and alternate tunings. One day the idea of refretting a > guitar to be more like a sitar just popped into my head. First, I think > I would probably like to try to increase the number of note choices per > octave. I know I could probably just fret in between the existing frets > and double my choices, but I would like to off-set the standard > fretboard itself. I hope I'm making sense? For second, I have contacted > Schecter for information on their removable fretboard guitars. I think, > though, that I would like to learn how to do this myself, so I don't have > to spend thousands of dollars every time want to try a new idea. I'd be interested in knowing what you learn about the Schecter. Building instruments can be a trap, I think, because you can get so busy trying to build the !@#%@ thing and fix teh @#%$^ thing and redesign the @@%^$!! thing that you aren't PLAYING - which is the point, eh? But you answered the essential question - whether you were after *pure* diatonic/chromatic scales, or you want "more notes". So I think you're clearly talking about a very complicated fretboard. Should be fun. > Instead of getting the JI calculator I think I will take your advice and > attempt to aquire the "Genesis of a New Music book", and get the Just > West Coast CD. Good luck on the book. I wish it could get reprinted somehow. I guess if nothing else there's GOT to be a copy somewhere in the Chicago Library system - maybe you could get it on inter-library loan. You know, Partch was at UI Champlain for several years - and Thomas McGeary is there today. Tough to get access to University Libraries, I know, but I have had some luck calling the reference librarian and being very nice and thankful and gracious etc. > > I would be greatful if you could send me photocopies of the adapted > guitar and viola. I made the copies yestereday and will mail Sunday. Unfortunatly, Partch was a lousy writer. But hopefully you can get some idea from it. > > Feel free to use any of my email's in your page, but please exclude any > mention of my phone number and address, but you can keep in my email > address. Sort of a Gradus Ad Parnassus for JI.... > Now, can I ask you a few questions? > > Could you explain the 1/1 2/3 ratio that is used in JI, I am beginning to > get it but I'm still a little confused by it's relation to measurement. Maybe part of what I'm mailling will help, also Doty's Just Intonation Primer (see the J.I.N. homepage to find out how to order it) may well be of great use. Take two guitar strings - of exactly the same length and diameter and material. Tune them identically, let's say to 200 Hz. Now, fret one string right in the middle. Pluck either side, and you have a pitch that is 2 times the original. You'd say "It's one octave higher." The frequency analyser says "it's 400 Hz". The JI type says "it's the 2/1 of the other string (you cut the string in 1/2 - the frequency rose by 2/1). If you were instead to stop the string at the 2/3 point, you'd have a frequency that was 3/2 of the original ( 3/2 == 1.5 - a pitch that is one and on half times the original is "a fifth"). You're a guitarist, you can do this experiment with a guitar. If you play your G string and then measure the string and find the point 2/3 of the way from the bridge, and fret it there, you'll no doubt that the 3/2 of the original G - the fifth abouve G - that is, the next higher D. (The G was the 1/1 - the 3/2 is the relationship between the two). On my web page is an intro to Partch's system that may not have been there when you looked first. You could take your guitar and find the thirds and fourths and sevenths etc, first by measuring and then checking that against your non-JI knowledge. This will help you internalize the idea of the ratios of string lengths on top of the abstraction of "letter names". Now, what you want to do is get (a) the "ordinary" notes to be EXACTLY right and (b) add some of those notes between the notes. For this you will do a lot of measuring - and testing! > What instrument(s) do you play and how did you come to discover JI? I primarily worked in composition and my prinary instrument for the last decade was software synthesis. That has the MASSIVE advantage that mostl of physical reality is removed. The computer is REAL good at JI because it involves lots of multiplication and division. About 2 years ago I inherited a decent piano and at the same time my computer music gang dispersed to the 4 corners of the earth and I was pretty frustrated at being unable to work in real time with physical gestures. So I've gotten pretty serious about piano lately, and no, it isn't tuned justly. > You sound very schooled? am I correct? I have allways admired the > abillity to disipline ones self to learn the science of the art. Hah. I is a dropout - tho I've taught grad students at several universities. No, I don't learn well in school, mostly self taught, tho at the ripe old age of 40 I have mellowed enough to allow a piano teacher into my life (it was in fact a good move). Looking back, I wish I'd had a chance to do the conservatory thing, but what the heck. > Once again, I appreciate your willingness to help me in my quest and > thank you for your time. Well, thank you. It's helped me add articles to my page and you;ve got me looking at an old guitar with evil intent myself. Let me know how you make out. > John Menich jmenich@disk.com > ro -- r l reid ro@panix.com copyright 1996 by r l reid microtonal resources and what not at: http://www.panix.com/~ro/ -OR- http://woof.music.columbia.edu/~rlr/ From ro Thu Dec 22 10:34:36 1994 Received: by panix2.panix.com id AA12389 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ro); Thu, 22 Dec 1994 10:34:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 10:34:35 -0500 From: r l reid Message-Id: <199412221534.AA12389@panix2.panix.com> To: ro@panix.com Subject: BARBER Status: O >Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.surnames >Path: panix!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!uhog.mit.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!uchinews!twpierce >From: eestee@CCMAIL.MONSANTO.COM >Subject: BARBER Shubael; CT,USA + NY,USA 1770-1840 >Message-ID: <1994Dec21.183412.14337@midway.uchicago.edu> >Originator: twpierce@quads.uchicago.edu >Sender: news@uchinews.uchicago.edu (News System) >Organization: Monsanto Company >Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 18:34:12 GMT >Approved: twpierce@quads.uchicago.edu (Tim Pierce) >Lines: 18 I am searching for the parents of Shubael Barber, born about 1770 (in CT or VT). My Shubael married Charlotte Pierce on 5 Nov 1802 in Hartford, Washington Co., NY. They eventually removed to Sandusky Co., Ohio, where he died in 1840. There is a well-documented Barber family of Windsor, CT, which includes Gideon Barber who married Anna Gillett. They had two sons named Shubael. The first (born 1747) died in March 1778. The second Shubael married Mary Denslow in 1800 and had a family in Conn. There was also a Shubael Barber who served in the Rev War from CT. He died in the service in March, 1778. Was this the son of Gideon? If so, did he ever marry and have a son named Shubael? Gideon Barber had two other male children -- Daniel and Martin. Were either of them the father of my Shubael? -- Ted Steele St. Louis, Mo. eestee@ccmail.monsanto.com -- ----- r l reid ro@panix.com From jmenich@www2.intelli.com Tue Dec 3 17:45:18 1996 Received: from www.intelli.com (intelli.com [207.7.56.226]) by mail2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7.1/PanixM1.0) with SMTP id RAA04750 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:45:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from disk.com.disk.com by www.intelli.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA01157; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:45:06 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:45:06 -0600 Message-Id: <199612032245.QAA01157@www.intelli.com> X-Sender: jmenich@disk.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ro@panix.com From: john menich Subject: John Xenharmenich!!!! Status: RO Dear Ro, How are you doing? Sorry, it's been a while since I wrote so I thought I'd drop you a line on my progress with building a microtonal electric guitar. Since then I have really gotten a good grip on understanding the ratios used in JI. In your first reply to my email you asked me exactly what did I want out of JI. I've sort of made that my credo and ask myself that often...it keeps me on track! What do I want out of all of this? Well, more notes is really what I'm after. I've spent the past months learning how to build a guitar. I'd like to mention Roger Siminoffs Building an Electric Guitar book. It comes with templates that I modified to suit my needs and I have begun. I purchased a band saw and have successfully cut out two guitar necks! The Siminoff book really explains everything very clearly. My first guitar will be 19 tones (start simple) and it will use the 4:5:6: Tritriadic Matrix. This scale appears to be the most interesting. I also have plans to attempt the scale by David Canright that is available on one of his web pages where he describes his modification to an acoustic guitar. Both of these scales utilize conventional frets not the staggered ones more common to JI. After I get a few guitars under my belt I will need to build bass guitars so I can accompany myself and then I will attempt a guitar using Parch' 43 tone JI scale. It's been almost a year since I began my journey into microtonality. I have even begun to play my 12tet Les Paul in ways I never thought of. This has been a very freeing experience! Once you drop the shackles of 12tet thinking, it's amazing how your mind begins to think in new ways. I've porpously avoided listening to Jon Catler. Since there is no such thing as new music, just a different combination of musics, I often wondered what would happen if you took a child who would have musical talent and sheltered him from all music and then around the late teens gave him/her some musical instruments? Kind of unrealistic but it's how I would like to go into microtonal music, without preset limitations and boundaries. To apply this type of thinking to high volume, feedback/noise oriented music would be exciting...well, at least to me it would be! My guitar will not be a conventional one either. I've extended the range of the neck to allow a full two 2/1's, or is that 3/1? I think so. I have also lengthened the scale to allow tuning in "C" with heavy strings. I'm rambling! Well, just wanted to let you know how things are going and, once again, thanks for laying down some bread crumbs for me to follow. I have also had the honor of correspondence with Steve Curtin and Neil Haverstick. Both have been very generous with their time and info. Steve writes a mod for the JI calc which gives fret positions (very, very helpful). As usual. please feel free to put this email on your page. I hope it will help someone. John Menich jmenich@disk.com